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Good evening. I'm David Shonebrod. We're gathered together tonight to hear an extraordinary

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story. One of the most fascinating stories in the history of man. Whether it is true or

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false is something that you will judge after you've heard the story and a discussion of it by a panel

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of scientists and science editors. The story will be told by the two people who have lived it. First,

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Mr. Barney Hill and his wife, Betty Hill. Barney and Betty Hill are two of many Americans who

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claim to have seen an unidentified flying object and two or perhaps a hundred who claim to have been

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aboard a flying saucer. Their story was written up for them by John Fuller, author, columnist, who in

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this new book, The Interrupted Journey, Two Lost Hours, Abort a Flying Saucer, tells not only their

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story but their therapy and the revelation to themselves by themselves under hypnosis of their

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extraordinary experience. And this will then be examined and discussed by a panel of experts.

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Let's now meet our experts. Dr. Leo Sprinkel, counselor and assistant professor of psychology at

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the University of Wyoming. Mr. Edward Edelson, science editor of the World Journal Tribune of

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New York. Professor James McDonald, an atmospheric physics professor at the University of Arizona.

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Mr. Leon Jariff, science editor of Time Magazine. And Carl Sagan, professor at Harvard University and

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also at the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory. Now, Mr. and Mrs. Hill, for your story. I believe it

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began on the night of the 19th of September 1961 as you were driving home from a vacation in Canada

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and something happened near Lancaster, New Hampshire. Which one of you was the first to see this

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something happen? Betty was the first one. Yes. Betty, could you start the story then? Yes. We were driving

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along on route three and it was a very clear night and the moon was very almost full and very bright

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and the stars were very, the sky was very clear. We can see the stars easily. When suddenly,

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near the moon, I noticed a new star which was much larger and brighter than the other stars from the

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sky. And I called Betty's attention to this. Then suddenly we noticed it started to move

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and it went across the face of the moon. We stopped the car and got out to look at this

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because we thought it was the satellite. And while we were observing it, it made a turn

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and started to come in in our direction. And at this point, we changed our minds thinking that it

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must be a plane. We were driving along and as it came in close, I began to realize that it was not

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a satellite or a plane, that it was something that I had never seen before. Now this was based on its

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manoeuvrability, the way it was flying. It was sort of, it had a very erratic flight in the sky

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and as it came in closer to us, it was sort of riding along on the ridge of the mountains.

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And then when we got in the area of Indian Head, it suddenly swung out over the highway

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in front of our car. At this time, I could see a row of windows around the edge and a red light

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on each side. And it was at this point that Bonnie stopped the car and he decided to get out,

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to get a good look at it and to identify it. So I got out of the car and took the pair of

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binoculars, 7x50 crescent binoculars and stepped away. And as I raised the binoculars looking over

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the roof of the car from my position on the ground, the object shifted across the highway,

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where now in making the shift, it also had a descent motion that brought it to what I roughly

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estimated as about 100 feet in the air. And then I began walking across the highway into the field.

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I walked quite a distance in the field and I saw what I thought were figures standing by this huge

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plate glass looking back at me. I couldn't believe it. I dashed back to the car screaming to Betty

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that, oh my gosh, I said something is going to capture us is what I said. There was a series of

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beeps and then later there was another series of beeps. Betty asked me if I now believed in

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flying saucers and I told her don't be ridiculous. Of course not. We continued then to proceed on

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to Fort Smith and we arrived. We both felt very uncomfortable and clean. I don't think I mentioned

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to Betty how I felt, but I felt clammy as if I had fallen into something very, very filthy.

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What time did you come home? I understand there was a time factor that you were surprised that

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you had come home so late. Well actually at the time, no, I wasn't surprised that we had arrived

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home later than really what we would have expected because we didn't put any particular

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importance on our arrival time except that we knew it was around 4.30. We should have arrived

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home at four hours. We arrived home in about five and a half to six hours. What were these

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objects on the back of your car that bothered you so much? Well, when I went out to look at the car

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to check it with the compass as this physicist had suggested, I found some round highly polished

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spots on the trunk of the car. When I put the compass near them, it just reacted erratically.

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In spun around? Yes. And then when I moved to Hawaii, the compass reacted normal. We had been

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asked if others had seen these spots and there are. There was a sergeant living in our apartment

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building at the time. He and his wife, they knew we had been on vacation so they came down and

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I told them she had gone out and she was quite upset about what she had seen and was trying to

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get me to go out and I wouldn't. So they went out and took a look and they came in quite excited

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insisting that I go out and look on the trunk of Betty's car. So when I went out, I also too

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saw these large shiny spots and I didn't put any or well it wasn't important. They were just shiny

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spots. I didn't know how they got there, but I didn't try to even understand how they were there.

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What next? During the same period of time, well about 10 days after the fighting itself,

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I had a series of dreams that lasted for about five nights and these were somewhat

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upsetting and puzzling to me. At first, I thought of them only as bad dreams, but then when the

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scientists noticed that there was this period of time, then I began to wonder if my dreams might

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have been my way of trying to recall what had happened. What could you tell us now about what was

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in those dreams? Well, the dreams, well briefly, in my dreams, we were driving along, we were stopped

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by a group of men in the highway, taken out of the car, taken aboard the UFO,

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underwent physical examination and then were relieved. These were the dreams that I had.

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How long after your mysterious experience in Lancaster and the mountains did you go to see Dr.

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Sider? This would have been in the latter part of 1963. The sighting was in September 1961.

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More than two years, perhaps. Yes. Revealed to you, what story did you learn about your experience

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under hypnosis? Well, they were the beeping fans and then I apparently went into some kind of

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days, some kind of condition like this, and we're driving along and Bonnie suddenly made

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a left-hand turn off the highway and we ran around the curb and there was a group of men

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standing in the highway. And under hypnosis, my first thought was there must be an automobile

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accident. And then the car amount had died and Bonnie was trying to stop the car. He wasn't able to,

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and these men were coming closer and they divided and at this moment I panicked. I became very frightened

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and I tried to open the car door thinking I would get out, run and hide in the woods until they were

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gone. Just as I opened the door, they stepped over where I was. And could you remember under hypnosis

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what these men looked like? Not at that moment. Then they took me out of the car and I went into

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sort of another deeper days of some sort. By the trance. Yes. And then I was, more or less,

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pulled myself out of this or at least partially. And I found myself walking in the woods with a man

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on the side of me and some in front, some behind me. And then in the back of me was Bonnie and he

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was like sleepwalking and there were these two men holding, more or less holding him up. We walked

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through this long path in the woods and then we came to the craft that was sitting on the ground.

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We went up the ramp and... You might ask, the ramp was never mentioned in Betty's dreams, but we

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seen, both seemed to share the idea that we had been going up a ramp. It was not in Betty's dreams,

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but it was the word that came out on hypnosis. Yes. Yes. So we went up ramp into this car as it

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curved and they took me into the first room and they took Bonnie into the second room. And while

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I was in there, they did what we call physical examination. The first thing they did was they

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examined my eye. Apparently they were looking at my skin and they seem to be making a lot of comments

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in themselves. My sister was quite excited about this. And they brought over what I called, I'd

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never seen one, so I don't know, but I call it a microscope with a camera attached. Then after

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that they just took hair samples on my fingernails. They checked my eyes, hair, my ears, nose and things

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like this. And they looked over my hands and my feet, particularly my feet quite thoroughly.

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Then they said they were going to test my nervous system and they brought over some kind of a machine

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which they touched. Were you fully dressed? No. They took off my dress and my shoes. And then

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doing this, what they call the checking of my nervous system, I had a slip on and they pulled

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my slip off and did this testing. And then the next one was the examiner had a needle and I became

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aware that he was going to... Did you have a needle? Yes. I didn't know if he had been injection or what

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it was. And I begged him not to use the needle because it would hurt. And he started to insert it

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into my navel. A long needle? It was a long needle. I don't know how... This long? It was, I think I'm

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going to get most of it. I said four to six inches. But I became badly frightened when I saw the needle.

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And then when I found out I planned to put it into my navel, I became very frightened and I begged

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him not to do it. And the leader said it wouldn't hurt and they started to put it in and it did.

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Why were they doing it? Well, he said it was a pregnancy test. And I said, well, it was no

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pregnancy test here. And they seem to be very surprised that I had any pain from this. And the

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leader put his hand up over my eyes and the pain went away. But they stopped the test. There was

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one man whom you called the leader? That was what I called the leader and what I called the examiner.

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What language did you speak to? I spoke in English. And I don't know what language they spoke in,

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but I understood them in English. By word or sound or thought transference? I don't know. You don't

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know. No, but I didn't notice it seemed to me. I actually heard sounds. I cannot say it was English.

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What happened when the examination was finished? Well, then I was standing there waiting to go

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back to the cow because all during this time they reassured us that as soon as the test were over,

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it would go back to the cow. And so I was standing there waiting and they said that Bonnie's examination

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was taking longer and that I would have to wait for him. And then there was always excitement.

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And this man came into the room without tugging at my teeth. And I questioned them about this. And

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this is why they shared their surprise that Bonnie's teeth were removable and mine were not.

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Well, your experience as well, Betty, was in the room being examined by these man-like beings.

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And I'd like to emphasize before I go into that is that this was brought out under hypnosis because

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I am still a bit reluctant in this area. I think it is important to reemphasize that the story you

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have just told is one that you were not consciously aware of. Never had to. Which was brought out of

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you by your psychiatrist, Dr. Baden Simon, under hypnosis. Yes. And it seems as if I was carried

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up the ramp, my feet were banging against the ground as these small men I described came up to me and

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carried me from the car and through the woods and up this ramp and into this room where I opened

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my eyes I saw a table. Betty described the table as being adequate for her to lie on the one that's

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the room where she was in. And at this time I do not know where Betty is. And apparently I am more

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concerned for my own welfare to be concerned about Betty. But the table that I described was small.

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And obviously the difference in our heights could be the answer. Well, how tall were these men?

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I estimate, well I said they were about as tall as Betty, but this would mean that they

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were about five feet above four and a half to five feet. Five feet. Yes. And I'm five feet eight.

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So that the three inches difference was quite a difference. And I said that the table was too

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small. Where I too was given an examination. I'm very conscious about my teeth. I was very upset

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about I only got as far as saying something went into my mouth and I did not bother the

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dollard doctor and he did not press this as to what was happening. But I can only think now

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that this would have been when my teeth would have been extracted and pulled out.

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Pulled out. Yeah, I should have said pulled out because they had dentures. Yes. And so they

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weren't extracted. They had been. But I go in the point, explain that the kind of examination that

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I had been given is the scraping of the skin and I had been turned over. They were interested in

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body openings and a cup like object was placed against my genitals. And I was reluctant to talk

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about that until Mr. Fuller was able to order from me by saying lower abdomen. And this would have

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been the extended examination. What do you believe now, buddy? All right. That's Betty first. All right, Betty.

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I believe we were really captured. I mean, if we were not captured, there was still face to the

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problem of what happened during these two hours of amnesia. Well, this is what I'm forced in a

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sense to believe that something happened that night. I can't say definite as to what definitely

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happened. But apparently if the hypnosis, which we were led to believe would be the means of opening

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up the amnesia, if this is not the facts, then what are the facts? I'm well, I think we're going to

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discuss that with a group of very knowledgeable people in just a moment from now. We're back with

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Barney and Betty Hill and about to begin discussion of their extraordinary case. But before we go to

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the panel, I think we ought to look at some sketches that they made. You may remember they said that

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when they got home from their experience, they both drew sketches of what they had seen. And then

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later on the hypnosis, they drew more sketches. Could you identify these and tell us what they are?

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This is one that Barney drew of the abduction spot itself.

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Oh, the abduction took place. Yes. This is how he remembered this.

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A car, a roadblock and the disc. Yes. Right. This is one that Betty drew and similar to the one I

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drew in the two red balls on the side of the indicates the red lights. That's what you saw

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that night. This is what it's all about. Yes. Now the next picture is what I tried to describe

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when I was standing in the field. And as the lights had parted away from the craft itself and the

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figures standing there looking back at me. Now the next sketch is what is one I sketched while

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under hypnosis. And I was trying to explain to Dr. Simon what the persons that I was involved with

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looked like. And this is what I drew in deep trance. I was trying to emphasize the eyes. And this is

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what was so outstanding that the eyes seem to go around the side of the face this way. And the cap

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was my attempt at drawing a military cap. They had a military cap and some sort of a scarf scribble

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around the neck. Yes. The figure doesn't seem to have a mouth. No, it doesn't. This is a map that

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Betty drew. And you can't have briefly tell about that Betty. On board the craft I asked them where

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they came from. And the leader went over and showed me this map. He didn't explain where he was

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where he was on the map. But he did explain that the lines he got in trade routes and places where

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they weren't regularly. And then expeditions. Now this is a another map that we have here that shows

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the constellation of Pegasus. Yes. This was printed in the New York Times one year after Betty had

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drawn her map in which the Russians were reporting that they thought there were radio signals

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emanating from this section in the sky. She then compared the sketch she had drawn with the map that

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was published in the New York Times. And she thought that there was a great similarity between the two.

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Now what is this coming up now? That seems to be another attempt to sketch these humanoid creatures.

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That's correct. This was after I had undergone the session of regressive hypnosis and now trying to

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draw for the doctor's benefit what I thought the creatures looked like. And again there's the heavy

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emphasis on the eyes the two slits representing nostrils and my attempt to show the slit line for

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the mouth and when the mouth was potted that is what I'm trying to show in the sketch. That was

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what I thought was a membrane inside that seemed to flutter rather than the same lip muscles that

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we have. We have the nostrils without a nose. Yes that's correct. All right I think that the panel

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has been very patient I'm sure very interested in everything has been said and perhaps we might

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ask who would like to start the questioning Dr. Sagan of Harvard University and I think also

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the Smithsonian Astrophysical Observatory at Harvard. All right Dr. Sagan. Well I'd like to

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begin the questioning if I may with with one general line of inquiry. Our present understanding of the

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evolution of life on earth is that it's a slow process of evolution by natural selection that

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human beings are the product of several billions of years of random mutation accidental effects

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leading up to what we are now. If events were even slightly different in the previous history of the

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earth we think that we would not wind up with things that are closely human beings but with

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something else. Now other planets certainly have environments quite different from those on the

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earth and therefore we would expect that beings that evolved there would have even greater differences

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and would not look closely like human beings and that's why I was interested to see that the

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characterization of the inhabitants of the supposed extraterrestrial space here who were

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with a few minor differences very closely human head to eyes something like a nose mouth hands feet

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and so on this this seemed to me to have an intrinsic implausibility about it seemed to me

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that much more likely that this was putting projecting human experience on to perhaps something else

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one question I'd like to ask is fingers how many fingers did you notice any about the Sagan

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didn't notice anything how about ear lobes I didn't notice ears how about Mrs.

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may I just briefly inject something here we were on another discussion and after very quietly more

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less very relaxed discussing for about two and a half hours the scientists question is very closely

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about the absence of our seeing or noticing hands so the announcer put a paper over my hand and asked

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the scientist what about my hands had he noticed anything was I wearing a ring or not and he had

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to admit he hadn't noticed them this would have been a much more relaxed situation right well

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but the point is that you did notice some details and I was interested in in whether you had noticed

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some other details yes no I had not nobody ready no I didn't yes I think I think the thing that

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does strikes me most is the fact that not only did these creatures breathe the earth's atmosphere

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with no difficulty but you were able to breathe the spacecraft's atmosphere with no difficulty

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is that a question no it's a comment well that's all I can say is did you notice any respirators

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or anything not from my position no we are job of science editor of time magazine I think

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has a question or comment yes as I understand it the only tangible evidence of the visit of this

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ship and their experience with it is the appearance of the bright shiny spots on the trunk of your

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car is that correct that would have been one of the tangible evidence one that I hadn't found to

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be important is that when I arrived in ports with that morning my shoes were badly scuffed and this

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well it's my opinion rather my word there's no proof to it the reason I asked I am aware of the

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scuff marks on your shoes but that's what happened in any earthly experience this is correct the

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point that I wonder about is the failure either of of mrs hill to call the attention of these spots

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to mr webb of the Hayden planetarium who was there a couple of these later or perhaps you had

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mentioned them but then mr webb neglected to look at them and since this is the only tangible evidence

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we wonder why someone didn't think of this we discussed the spots with baltow webb and with

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mr holman and mr jackson but we had spent hours discussing this and then it was just

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oversight on their part and leaving when they left for us we just forgot to show them to

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know if I ever did no one put that question to mr webb maybe john who was talking yes I did and

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walder webb simply throws up his hand and discussed at his own failure as an investigator I am convinced

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in my own mind that nothing was hidden that it was simply a very serious oversight and he agrees

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that it was ed edelson of world journal tribune although spots still there and if not we're what

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happened to them the spots gradually wore away over the winter months and we don't have the

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chair now professor mcdonald of the university of arizona while we're on the spots there was a

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point that probably ought to be made and then a question that ought to be asked the reason you

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originally got the compass out to look at those was that as someone had suggested that this would be

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a means of testing for radiation I I it's not clear to me how that would ever have detected the

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irradiation of the car I think that is just an observation that should be made are you saying

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that if it were irradiated that the compass would not in any case behave this way yeah and in the

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first instance I'm saying that irradiation could not be detected with a mad compass but so that's

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just a side comment but you did the experiment nevertheless and so we have the results of the

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experiment and it's quite disconcerting because with anything other than a or a current rapidly

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changing dipole moment of some mysterious kind in the trunk of the car there is no easy way to

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understand the mechanism to cause the compass needle to spin well those beeping sounds the only

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noise you heard is this apparently huge aircraft approached yes these would be this was the only

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sound we heard and by the you didn't hear any sound but it wasn't at the aircraft approach it was

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after I had dashed back to the car and screamed to Betty Betty that something was going to capture us

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then there was a series of beeps now I do recall touching the steering column because it was a

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very subtle vibration and the last I remembered is Betty was feeling around on the panel of the

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car the dashboard itself and then later there was another series of beeps and again we remarked what's

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that and Betty then asked if I believed in flying saucers and I said no um certainly not a psychologist

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but some aspects of the story that mrs hill told particularly the the needle incident seemed to

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me recognizable from having read Freud and I wonder mr shunbrown if that money chance had been talked over

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between you and dr simon yes I would rather not put that into context but it has been however I

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think that mr fuller had discussed that with dr simon I discussed it with Betty herself too and

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and Betty is a as a qualified state social worker is aware of the dream symbolism and that sort of

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thing and it is something that she cannot explain one way or the other I don't think that it should

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be discussed publicly I do say that that facet of it has been completely and thoroughly explored

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and Betty is fully aware of it as anybody else may I add something there's something that I've

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discovered since the hypnosis and I don't know is this would apply to adults but in hospitals when

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it's necessary to obtain a blood sample from a small infant it is done through the navel I think

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that you might correct me if this is wrong at least point out to one fact that you said it was a

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very large needle larger than anything that you have seen for a long time it had been plunged into

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your navel I can't say it was plunged in but it was they started to insert it and I had pain and I

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was under the impression they stopped but there was no blood or physical evidence of puncture

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I wasn't aware of this until 1964 well whenever it happened if it did happen you didn't detect

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any wound on your body no any other questions about this well I think that I'd like to be

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very careful about this and I've taken very careful notes in my discussion with Dr. Simon and I'd like

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to read these notes to you I want to take just a second to go over them myself and we will be back

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with Dr. Simon's testimony given to us right after this message I recently had the opportunity of

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talking to Dr. Ben Simon the psychiatrist who's treated Betty and Barney Hill and asked him whether

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he could summarize for me his findings he made it very clear that we must avoid such words as

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belief for other unscientific words and that the treatment has not been completely concluded

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and so this is a summary of the doctor's thoughts on the case of Barney and Betty Hill he said that

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from the very start he envisaged of four possibilities one is that it might be a rare psychological

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phenomenon known as philia d'hue that means both people going crazy at the same time with the same

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illusion and he excluded that immediately he said these were to him very very sane and reasonable

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and and honest people and not suffering from this quite rare psychological phenomenon of philia d'hue

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the second possibility is that this was simply a fraud and he said of course he had to go into that

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and he went into it very thoroughly and he is convinced that the way their stories came out

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in hypnosis as well as the waking period analysis convinces him that there's no case for fraud here

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at all then there was the third possibility that the story was fundamentally true as related that in

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fact they not only cited a flying object but that they were aboard a flying object a flying saucer

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and met humanoid creatures and he said that after examination he came to the conclusion that this was

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a very remote possibility and he said there were any number of evidences that that pointed in another

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direction which leads to the fourth possibility in his various hypotheses which he calls the dream

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hypothesis and that is that uh betty after the experience uh had certain dreams and that after

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a period of time the dreams became reality and the doctor pointed out that although hypnosis

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under hypnosis the patient always tells the truth it is the truth as the patient sees and knows the

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truth himself but it is not necessarily the ultimate non-personal truth and the doctor said he found

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many evidences that there was a strong stimulus from the very first experience that you had inciting

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this object a very strong stimulus towards believing the existence of the flying saucer

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and the doctor said to me i do believe that they saw an unidentified flying object and his final

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word on the subject that that there is very strong evidence of dream content and that of all of the

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hypotheses that he examined the dream hypothesis is the most likely one and that is the burden of his

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present summary before we go on to discuss the very much broader subject in which of course i think

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we're all interested about the existence of intelligence creatures outside of earth who

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have in fact an advanced technology and have been visiting earth before we go into that i think in

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all fairness i must allow john fuller of the hills to make some comment on the summary of what dr

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ben simon told me the only comment i can make is this that um i spent weeks with dr simon going

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over the tapes listening stopping going all that sort of thing naturally it's a long hard

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poll in this kind of situation and there are many vacillations and many hesitations and many

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different points of discussion to come up one problem one of the main reasons why

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dr simon had moved away from the fact of the actuality of this is because of the fact that

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he of course was not interested in the ufo story and as a scientist and i don't blame him he would

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be inclined because it is not documented anywhere in scientific history and this is the main reason

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why i think it is most important that the scientific fraternity turn toward the masses of the other

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cases which are appearing right now so that if a case like this comes up there is at least some

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some background and some foundation some substance to make a judgment one way or the other on this

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there's no doubt that there are a fair small fact of these sightings which remain unknown that

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is very different from saying that the only possible explanation of these unknowns is that

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there's space vehicles from another planet and if you look at the number of relatively obscure

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natural phenomena which have been identified misapprehended as flying saucers you see that

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nature is very complicated and i wonder if i heard well be that there are actually things in

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the atmosphere of the earth things of a biological nature things in particular involving atmospheric

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refraction which can explain the category of unknowns the mere fact that we don't know it

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means just that it doesn't mean the extraterrestrial visitation is the only possible explanation

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i just like to point out that if these are visits visitors from another planet they're going about

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this in a very illogical let's say unherrically way well that's my honor you know as dr sagan has

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pointed out that the unidentified cover are coming in various different shapes so apparently they've

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sent a whole fleet of these things here they have gone to very great expense to come long

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distances and yet somehow they don't want to open contact with us they seem to delight in deserted

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places and in hard maneuvers and i think one point dr sagan mentioned in his book is that

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astronomers have been pointing telescopes toward the sky and taking pictures many pictures of the

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night sky and there has been a singular lack of provable UFOs on those pictures even when i might

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add these uh the sky surveys have been designed to look for rapidly moving objects namely the study

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of mirrors now and i think this tends to explain the general skepticism of the astronomical community

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towards the flying saucer reports in general that doesn't mean that there aren't things up there that

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are unidentified let me reiterate again that uh unidentified doesn't mean extraterrestrial it

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means we don't understand it and i quite agree that uh that that there's something there to be found

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out i think there's probably things meteorological things geophysical and almost certainly things

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psychological well let me point out something there then to go back both to the to the hell's

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case and to your remarks dr sagan uh you suggest that a very small fraction of all the official

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official cases project blue book of the air force are unidentified i spent almost all of the summer

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a good bit of the spring about the last six months in nearly full time study of this uh this whole

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problem and then as part of that uh been up to right patterns and can't agree with either your

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remarks or the air force remarks project blue book figures when i went over case after case and i dare

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say i've looked into about 150 200 cases at right patterns and alone the discrepancies between the

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official categorizations balloons aircraft berg and so on astronomical meteorological the discrepancies

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between the official categorizations and the content of the reports was to me and no other word

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could describe this astounding document uh despite these discrepancies that you found in reports have

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you or has anyone else uh who has investigated this phenomenon um seriously ever found a single

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piece of evidence hardware hardware uh anything other than pictures or settings and not hardware

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certainly there have been many cases i could probably sit here and think of a couple of dozen

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of the instances where credible observers describe such artifacts if you will as indentations in the

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ground where a craft settled a scorched vegetation near where it is you're not but there's been a

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scientific inquiry yes there's been one case in which some people have agreed to the findings and

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some people have been skeptical and this is reported in the book by corral lorenza and chainer

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husband lj lorenza and our head of the aerial phenomena research organization and they received

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report from dr fontes who is a physician in in brazil and the report describes a fragment

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fragments which supposedly came from a flying saucer which burst and then were analyzed i don't

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i can't comment on the report how well it was done but according to the conclusion this would

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suggest it was a high quality aluminum um or magnesium pardon me uh higher quality than supposedly

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is possible in birth laboratory but there are other people gentlemen please forgive me forgive me

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for interrupting this very exciting discussion at this moment we'll come back to it right after this

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message we're back again with professor mcdonald a professor of atmospheric physics the university

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of arizona sir you said a moment ago that the subject requires considerable examination rectification

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would you begin by telling us of how you first got interested in came to this opinion well i've

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had a uh a mild interest in this problem for perhaps a decade my field is atmospheric physics and a

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lot of the official explanations have centered around atmospheric physical phenomena optical

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effects and so on and this led me all at 1954 so to begin checking cases in the southern arizona

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area where i live and work uh let me take one case this is now almost 10 years ago the rather

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important case probably many listeners will remember when it was headline news is occurring

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level land texas the night of november second and the morning of the third 1957 it involved

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some very interesting phenomena i've interviewed some of the people who were involved in it i have

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a map here that will give us a little bit of a notion of the of the general geography here is

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level in texas a small town about 30 000 the lines are highways running in and out of level and

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from about 11 o'clock at night on the second till around one in the morning on the third a series of

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about 10 independent sightings by 10 persons a couple of them were law enforcement officers

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others were just drivers over here there were a there was a two grain combines involved in every

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one of these instances the interesting thing that happened was that the driver of the vehicle

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suddenly came upon a very large and when i say large the reported sizes were the order of 100 to

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200 feet diameter glowing sometimes reddish sometimes bluish objects hovering over fields

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or roads the first effect on the vehicle was a interference with the lights and then the ignition

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system failed excuse me doctor i noticed that you have a lot of numbers on the map if you could

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point them out these places where the sightings were yes they are 10 numbers on here i won't

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bother the names and individuals but this 10 miles is about the size of this pencil just to give you

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some scale and these are spread over a two hour period and each one of these numbers here's one

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seven they correspond to the names of the people were instances in which cars were stopped and the

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lights went out as soon as the object took off which was the characteristic pattern so the

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some of the cars were stopped for two to three minutes but then the objects rose from the ground

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sometimes with enormous accelerations then the lights came back on without any manipulation

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of the ignition key and the driver found he could immediately start his car this was common to all

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of these cases now the official explanation of this level in texas case based on the air force

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handling of the project blue book investigation was that this was ball lightning uh that that's

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what accounted supposedly for these 200 foot diameter objects plus wet ignitions and that was

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the official explanation of why the cars stopped now we all know about the fact that cars when they

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do get wet don't usually start immediately there's a bit of a problem there but this is uh this is

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a only secondary compared to what one finds when he looks as i have at the actual weather data for

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the case in question excuse me sir before we get there if it were ball lightning is it normal to

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have ball lightning of that size and would that ball lightning have the electromagnetic quality

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of stopping these engines well there are there are first of all the typical size of ball lightning

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ball lightning is a fairly rare phenomenon most of us have never seen it i have never seen it though

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that's very much in my field the uh of flipton diameter is a typical phenomenon but the the

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cases of ball lightning uh that are on record are strictly limited to extreme thunderstorm conditions

387
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where you have an energy source high potential high gradient and the uh there is no i am not aware

388
00:41:24,480 --> 00:41:29,920
of any case where a vehicle was stopped by ball lightning it i could not assert that it could

389
00:41:30,880 --> 00:41:34,880
well uh then this was the question i asked i discussed this problem with a colleague at

390
00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,960
westinghouse who's an expert in these problems he said well maybe in the event of a really severe

391
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,960
thunderstorm you could scale up ball lightning to tens of feet and maybe they made an error

392
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:48,560
of estimate size so i looked at the map and i was quite startled uh as a person with meteorological

393
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:53,520
training here's the map for the very time this is 12 o'clock midnight right in the middle of

394
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:58,160
the level in texas that's a weather map this is a weather map these are the isobars i think

395
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:03,600
perhaps many persons looking on will uh be familiar with us from weather sessions here's the gulf

396
00:42:03,600 --> 00:42:10,320
coast uh and the state of texas in is in here now i'll point with my pencil to level and texas

397
00:42:10,320 --> 00:42:16,000
which is in the panhandle and any of you who are familiar with meteorology will immediately be

398
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:21,920
bothered by the fact that uh level and was uh being invaded by a large high pressure area pushing

399
00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:26,880
down over the great plains the nearest front was down near san angelo hundreds of miles away

400
00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:32,400
the nearest rain was about a hundred miles away uh the weather report for the nearest stations

401
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:40,000
involved only scattered clouds and in level and uh area there were no stations at the time of the

402
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:44,560
observation that even had any rain uh two hours later there was one station that had less than 100

403
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:48,880
of an inch and here is the official explanation charging severe thunderstorms and wet ignitions

404
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:55,680
utterly senseless uh and when i asked the people at right paterson they really had no very good

405
00:42:55,680 --> 00:43:01,600
answer and all i can say is that in cases of this sort uh an ad hoc explanation is almost pulled

406
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:06,640
out of the blue i have just seen it in too many instances to be happy with this uh there there

407
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:13,120
are many very definite things that could be done in a scientific context to pursue this problem

408
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:19,200
and it badly needs that kind of attention in my opinion thank you very much uh professor mcdonnell

409
00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:24,800
we'll be back again in just a moment we have heard the extraordinary personal story of barney

410
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:31,520
and betty hill and a much broader discussion of the phenomenon of ufo's by a panel of authorities

411
00:43:31,520 --> 00:43:37,760
some of whom insist there are no visitors from outer space some of whom are skeptical and some of

412
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:44,320
whom believe that the only explanation to fit the facts is that there are extraterrestrial visitors

413
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:51,520
well what are we to believe when the experts disagree speaking both for myself and for the

414
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:58,000
editors of this program we would say this unidentified flying objects demand serious and

415
00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:04,800
immediate scientific attention we would recommend one an immediate study in depth by university

416
00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:13,120
teams two a pattern analysis by computer of existing data and three the establishment of a ufo

417
00:44:13,200 --> 00:44:21,600
research center staffed by competent scientists for ridicule is no longer appropriate we did not

418
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:27,200
write the words that i have just spoken they are taken from a speech made in june of this year

419
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:32,960
by dr j allen heineck chairman of the astronomy department of northwestern university and for

420
00:44:32,960 --> 00:44:41,040
the past 18 years science advisor to the air force study of ufo's we subscribe to his recommendations

421
00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:47,760
but we would make one important addition that the ufo research center be totally independent

422
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:55,120
of government but that it have the authority to examine air force data this is david shonbrunn

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good night